How many Internationalist Communists are there?
Submitted by Kinglear on Sun, 2011-06-05 11:04
This question above was raised by Battaglia Communista in 1963. It might be interesting to raise it again now. Given events that have taken place recently: the seemingly unstoppable decline of the capitalist system, apparent in both Europe and N. America; an increasing proletarian response in both areas, but especially Europe; rebellions in the Arab world and manifestations such as the "indignant" in Spain; the apparent idiocy of the bourgeoisie in response to the problems facing their absurd system, and in response to the environmental and "natural" disasters which their system provokes; is it not likely that increasing numbers of people, including particularly young people as the evidence seems to suggest, will come to see that the removal of capitalism from the face of the planet - which it does nothing but disfigure - is long overdue, and that it needs replacing by something that serves the needs of humanity rather than the requirements of profit.So battered is bourgeois ideology these days that even to compare the needs of humanity, which communism will serve, with the requirements of the quaint archaic system we've submitted to for so long, appears laughable.
It is a possibility that many working class militants will be produced by this situation. In fact both the ICT and the ICC have commented that more and more young people are showing interest in revolutionary politics. But given the still very small number of officially signed up militants in the revolutionary milieu, what will happen when we get a deluge of new people demanding access to the existing proletarian organizations, and starting to set up their own, and probably in need of a guiding hand in so doing? It could be chaos. There could be confusion and loss. Resuscitated leftism could have a field day. So what is to be done? It would be good to hear what comrades think about this. We don't want to be caught napping.
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How do we count it? I think
How do we count it?
I think every communist would say they were internationalist.
However, they would also include many who embrace positions which are bourgeois and nationalist.
Interesting point on he influx of new elements.
My take is that the years of small groups, few but very knowledgeable comrades has led to a literature that reflects that situation, and I think the coming period will be very much internet based and communication will have to be stripped to the essentials for a mass audience.
Thank you for your comment
Thank you for your comment Steve. The question 'how many internationalist communist...' was not mine but Battaglia's in 1963 and republished by IBRP om this website in 1996. The answer in 1963 and 1996 would have been "not many" Today the answer could be different and more encouraging. And I don't think the category 'internationalist communist' would really include many bougeois nationalists! But let that be! Your point about 'knowledgeable comrades', with their specialist literature, and your implicit suggestion that this sort of thing may be outdated, is striking. So is the suggestion that revolutionary communications needs to get minimal and adapt to Internet style media. But it doesn't address the question of how more traditional style militants, such as those in the ICT, will relate to and connect to a larger developing mass of newly fledged proletarian militants. Or maybe you think that everything will be just fine, it'll all work out and no problem! Will the Party always be minute? If not, then how is it to grow without diluting itself? We may need an answer to this sooner than is currently thought. (I hope!)
“Or maybe you think that
Personally I don't think that the situation is just fine. The number of internationalist communists at the moment is tiny, and we are completely ill-equipped to deal even with a small upsurge caused by a moderate increase in the level of the class struggle, let alone what could be caused by a large scale increase in the struggle.
In our section of the ICC we currently have exactly the same number of people in the process of joining as we have members. To be honest, I have know idea what we would be doing if the numbers of people wanting to join was only slightly higher.
Devrim
Perhaps it is the party
Perhaps it is the party positions whch need to be generalised without having to worry too much about the size of party membership, but it would seem that such generalisation would be easier with more labourers doing the job.
Certainly, party members might be a special breed, but we need a lot more awareness and support from the class in general to play a decisive role in the anticipated proetarian power structure.
So numbers are relevant.
Hellosteve. Can you give an
Hellosteve. Can you give an example of a partyvposition prior to 'generalization ' and what it would be like afterwards? Otherwise it's difficult to know what you mean. It would be easier with more laborers you say - but thats the point isn't it? If the laborers have to be members of the organization before they can help with it's tasks - well it's a bit chicken and egg isn't it? There are comrades with an internationalist perspective who post on internationalist websites, can't you recruit them to help? Can't you have a two tier system, whereby the second tier consists of like trainees, or people who dot want a full commitment as yet? If we all wait till the class is fully engaged and is secreting militants by the dozen, then it may be overwhelming. As Devrim implied , there only has to be a small increase for the situation to be impossible.
The party positions are for
The party positions are for total proletarian power and that implies the break with reformism, nationalism and bourgeis ideology which currently dominate the working class. Thus the generalisation of proletarian perspectives is a rejection of parliament, unions, the unleashing of a massive strike wave and the construction of proletarian power, the suppression of bourgeois power...
The number of party members is not a determining factor in this scenario, though I agree, more would be useful.
As we do not yet have a party, it is dificult to say who would qualify for what status, though the idea of fully fledged members, candidates and sympathisers seems possible.
It would be ideal to have many communists in the councils, but perhaps a few could have a decisive effect.
Thank you Steve, for your
Thank you Steve, for your clarifications.
I feel that you guys are
I feel that you guys are going about this all wrong, this class struggle and anticipated revolution. Have you gotten any "workers" together? have you tried to make their lives any better? i dont think that social change comes about by a few people discussing bs on the internet.
I propose a plan. I have played with this idea and have gotten some feed back many poor working class people whether they work at mcdonalds or phillips 66 wish they were in a union. I wish i was in a union. So get them together ask them at their jobs how they feel about organizing. But for them not for your own self interest or to be leading some revolution. Organize them, get enough of them! get them their healthcare. get them their vacation days. be servents of the people.
Dont ever talk down to the working class either. We hate condescending intilectuals. Most communists are condescending dicks and have destroyed their relationship with the working class.
unite us one mcdonalds and one walmart at a time.
I feel that you guys are
I feel that you guys are going about this all wrong, this class struggle and anticipated revolution.
We are revolutionaries so we are trying to get our point across. Is it the message or our ways of spreading it you object to? I think this is a dynamic organisation and we are open to new ideas. But we are revolutionaries...
..........
Have you gotten any “workers” together? have you tried to make their lives any better? i dont think that social change comes about by a few people discussing bs on the internet.
We are the ICT and we encourage others to join, it is small but it is an organisation.
We are not in a position to rescue workers, nor is that our intent, though in the future that may occur.
What you call bullshit is the cement linking us together, revolutionary theory. On the net there is room for a loose approach as we throw ideas around, but we have a serious body of ideas, perspectives and statements that will enable anyone interested to understand the reality of capitalism and a means to bury it.
..............................
I propose a plan. I have played with this idea and have gotten some feed back many poor working class people whether they work at mcdonalds or phillips 66 wish they were in a union. I wish i was in a union. So get them together ask them at their jobs how they feel about organizing. But for them not for your own self interest or to be leading some revolution. Organize them, get enough of them! get them their healthcare. get them their vacation days. be servents of the people.
We do not think capitalism offers any better future, but the opposite.
You want to be cool but you are out of touch.
Capitalism is beyond the stage where it could keep everyone happy even in its richest aress. We understand that the only way forward is revolution. Workers may fight for a better deal, a few may get one, but the whole class is facing worse and worse. Capitalism has nothing better to offer. You need to study this and see why we dont support unions, dont ask for reforms and agitate for revolution.
Dont ever talk down to the working class either. We hate condescending intilectuals. Most communists are condescending dicks and have destroyed their relationship with the working class.unite us one mcdonalds and one walmart at a time.
Who the fuck are you?
You think we are not working class because we read, think and write?
We say what we think.
You want to contribute to the working class? Read and think, because your ideas are obsolete.
Still, you made it this far, go all the way, reformism is dead, revolution is the only positive outcome.
Who does Anonymous have in
Who does Anonymous have in mind when he says communists are condescending dicks and have destroyed their relationship with the working class? Does he mean the communists in Cuba, or China, or the leftover communists in Russia? On this site we are not Stalinists, or Maoists, or some other type of ruling class "communists" : but communist militants committed to the interests of the working class in it's fight against capitalism which exploits it. To understand this doesn't make you an intellectual or condescending. And, in fact, asking for workers to be united by some outsiders "one mcdonalds and one walmart at a time" sounds like a request for nothing less than....condescension. Fighting capitalism is not just our self-interest, but the interest of the whole working class. We aren't going to get rid of it one walmart at a time, only by uniting together.
how are you going to unite
how are you going to unite together? by talking about it? how can a revolution happen without getting the people together? you have to start from the bottom. i say start at mcdonalds.
in america we do not have many factory workers. and most people are not farmers. everyone works in the service industry. go get them. thats all i am saying. lets start changing the world now.
We can only present our
We can only present our idea.
Uptake depends on circumstances.
We believe the ability of the capitalist class to manage the crisis and maintain social peace is spent, the prospect is class struggle and war- conditions wher revolutionary idea should gain ground.
No guarantees, but we only have one message and its essence does not vary depending on the momentary belief of the mass of the working class.
Hello Anonymous. I
Hello Anonymous. I sympathize totally with what you say n your last post. We can't have a revolution, or even start to think and talk about it, without getting together in meetings, assemblies, mass strikes (eventually!) and generally starting to learn how to resist the capitalist state. And, in the end, we have to come to the realization that capitalism is a killer and we must get rid of it. This is starting to happen a bit in various European countries. There's also a beginning in Wisconsin, and some other US States. Steve thinks that the capitalist class is losing it and that the future belongs to class struggle. The world is waiting to be changed. Do what you can in mcdonalds.
“Any movement today, however
"Any movement today, however small, that starts to discuss the needs of the struggle, the issues and obstacles that face the working class, and the longer term perspectives for the class struggle, has far more to offer than all the big talk of the unions and the Left.". This is a quote from an article on the website of the International Communist Current talking about a day of action n England on June 30th. I pasted it here (I hope the ICT doesn't mind) because it says what was I was trying to say above, and says it better. And I think - I hope - it goes some way towards answering your questions, about how to start political change.
One thing, if w could start
One thing, if w could start at a McDonalds, we would.
At the moment, the task is connecting individual by individual the world over.
The fact is the working class in general is not receptive to our politics.
Our perspective is not based on the current moment alone, the task, difficult as it may be, is to defend the revolutionary perspective regardless of temporary circumstance.